In this week’s episode, Josie shares a DNA surprise that doesn’t come as the result of a test she took, but of her own revelation well into her twenties. She always knew that she was donor conceived and raised by a single mother, but it wasn’t until she had her son that she wanted to find her sperm donor.
Josie shares why she wanted to seek out her donor and what she hopes to gain from their future relationship. Her story ends on a cliffhanger – listen to the end of the episode for an update directly from her.
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Transcripts are AI-generated and may not reflect the final published episodes.
[00:00:00] Josie: The wait is a little bit agonizing. Um, it’s like it’s hard to not stare at my phone waiting for it to ring. And like every telemarketer call that comes in, even if I know it’s a telemarketer, I will answer it just hoping that it’s gonna be him calling.
[00:00:21] Alexis: Imagine spinning into a tube, sending off your DNA, and unknowingly turning your life upside down. For me and thousands of others, this is our reality. I’m your host, Alexis Hourselt. In July of 2021, I discovered that I’m an NPE, someone who has experienced a non-paternal event. In other words, my biological father isn’t who I thought he was.
This podcast shares the journeys of people who were shocked by a DNA discovery mostly through modern DNA testing. We’re telling the [00:01:00] stories of the NPEs, adoptees, and donor-conceived people and their families. This is DNA Surprises. Welcome to the season five finale of DNA Surprises.
Before we begin this episode, I want to take a moment to thank all of the amazing people who bravely shared their stories with me this season: Christa, Jen, Kimberly, Morgan, Liann, Mark, Shari, Caroline, Penny, Shelly, Chris, and Josie. Thank you for trusting me with your stories and helping others feel less alone.
In this week’s episode, Josie shares a DNA surprise that doesn’t come as the result of a test she took, but of her own revelation, well into her twenties.
She always knew that she was donor conceived and raised by a single mother, but it wasn’t until she had her own son that she wanted to find her donor. [00:02:00] Josie shares why she wanted to seek out her donor and what she hopes to gain from their future relationship. Her story ends on a cliffhanger. Listen to the end of the episode for an update directly from her.
Thank you for sharing your story, Josie.
[00:02:15] Josie: Hi, my name is Josie. I am 34 years old and I am from Pennsylvania. Um, I. I kind of just accepted that I don’t have a dad. I only have a mom. I was raised by a single mother by choice. She is a wonderful mother and I love her with all my heart. But when I was a little kid and you’re in elementary school and you have these class assignments to draw your family or whatever, I would always just draw my mom and the other kids would be like, how can you not have a dad? And I would just say, I just don’t. And I, I didn’t question it at all. I just accepted that as [00:03:00] fact and I didn’t even really question it until I was in my twenties, which is kind of appalling for some other people. Like, how could, how did you not know that you, you need a dad to make, make another person? It, it just never crossed my mind. And that could be partly due to the fact that I’m not neurotypical. Um, but that’s neither here nor there.
[00:03:28] Alexis: How did your mom talk to you when you were a child about your family?
[00:03:33] Josie: She just said, you don’t have a dad. Hmm. I accepted that, um, I didn’t question it. She would always introduce herself as a single mother and that that was normal to me. That was, um, just how things were and I didn’t think anything of it that my other friends had two parents. I was like, okay, great. That’s what, what their life is like. Good for them. I’m [00:04:00] happy. Yeah. I didn’t question anything. I never brought it up. My mom never brought it up. Nobody ever brought it up, ever. I just always thought that it was not something that ever should be brought up.
Like once I figured out into adulthood that there is a, a, like a sperm donor out there and I didn’t care to know anything and I was content not knowing anything until I became a mother. Last year. I have a beautiful one-year-old child, little boy, and as soon as he was born, I was struck with the urge to figure out who my biological father is.
I knew that. My mom had used a sperm donor, so I did an Ancestry and a 23 and me test more so in hopes of finding half-siblings. Hmm, not even really so much as finding my donor, but I, I did the [00:05:00] test and the results came back in six weeks and there were no close matches on either platform. That was really disappointing.
There were some second cousins that I didn’t recognize, so I assumed that they were from the donor’s side, but I just kind of set it aside because I didn’t get any half-sibling matches and then months go by and I saw on Facebook the DNA Angels Group. So, I looked into that. And inquired if they could take my case and they could.
And I worked with a very lovely angel who helped me piece together some clues from these second-cousin matches, like within a couple of days. We, we had it narrowed down. Um, I did a lot of the research on my own. I read tons of obituaries and I knew that. The donor was most likely a doctor or a medical student, [00:06:00] and I was able to connect with a second match on Ancestry who was very gracious and very kind and helpful and wonderful, and she gave me the names of two doctors in the family and she sent pictures of both of them as children, and I knew immediately which one it was because the resemblance was so striking. It was like the first time I’ve ever seen my face on another person.
[00:06:27] Alexis: How did you feel when you made that connection?
[00:06:30] Josie: I was like, oh, that’s pretty cool. The funny thing is I really strongly favor my mother. Oh, like I could be her, her double her clone. But seeing my donor’s childhood picture, I was like, wow, that that’s my face. And I showed my husband, he’s like, yep, that that guy has your face.
Yeah, that was pretty cool to see that for the first time. I always just accepted when I was [00:07:00] little and even well into my twenties, I accepted it as fact that I was a hundred percent Italian. ‘Cause that’s what my mother told me. ‘Cause she is a hundred percent Italian. Um, and I found out when I got my Ancestry and 23 and me results back that I am half Italian and half polish.
So, I’ve been embracing trying all the types of pierogis to get in touch with my Polish side. So, I did some Googling and Facebook stalking, and I found him where he lives now, and I sent him a letter via certified mail, and I, I have yet to hear back. I sent it about four weeks ago. Um, it’s been really difficult, refreshing my email like every two minutes and staring at my phone waiting for it to [00:08:00] ring.
Because I don’t know, like what he’s thinking. I don’t know if he’s gonna send me a cease and desist. I don’t know. Like if he’s gonna just not ever answer or if he’s just taking time to process.
[00:08:14] Alexis: What have you been able to learn about him so far, like from your second cousin?
[00:08:18] Josie: Um, not, not a whole lot because they weren’t in touch since they were kids, really. But the weird thing is I went to high school with his niece. His, not his, um, biological niece, so it’s his niece through marriage. His wife’s niece and I hadn’t talked to her in like 18 years. So, I sent her a message and I was like, hey, um, it’s been a while. Hope you’re doing well.
Do you happen to have an email address for your uncle? I think we might be related, and I just let it go at that. I didn’t wanna be like, um, hey, I think he might be my sperm [00:09:00] donor, but we didn’t get anywhere with that, unfortunately.
[00:09:05] Alexis: Have you been able to learn anything through your Facebook stalking and Googling about him?
[00:09:11] Josie: Yes, he has two children with his wife, so I guess that would be my half-sister and half-brother, and I couldn’t find anything on his son, but I really, really, really wanna talk to my half-sister, and she has beautiful children, and I’m just gonna be pretty gutted if he gets back to me and says that he doesn’t want me to contact his daughter or anything. Or any anybody else in the family.
[00:09:42] Alexis: Yeah. So that’s kind of one of my questions is are you waiting to hear back from him before you contact anyone else? Because I, I think this donor conceived journey is different from NPEs who are raised with like a birth [00:10:00] certificate father and that kind of thing.
And some of them that I talk to, they will say, it’s my right. I will reach out to my siblings. Others defer to their fathers. In your case, it sounds like you are deferring to him before you make contact with anyone else. And why do you, why do you feel that way?
[00:10:18] Josie: I, I don’t feel it’s my place to tell his children that he donated sperm.
Especially since they’re older than me. So, I don’t know if he donated before he had them and it was just frozen and used later, or if he donated after they were born. I don’t know the circumstances, I don’t particularly care to know, but I feel like that should be his story to tell, if he chooses to tell.
And I hope he does because I’d like to get to know them.
[00:10:53] Alexis: Yeah, that’s totally, totally understandable.
[00:10:55] Josie: And I can read the letter if you’d like.
Alexis: Yes, please [00:11:00] do.
Josie: Dear Doctor. So and so, this is probably not a correspondence you are expecting. My name is Josie. I am donor conceived. I have been working with dnangels.org and through DNA matches on Ancestry.
I have determined that my grandparents are Henry in Virginia. My closest DNA matches are these two people who I believe are your first cousins. I was born in 1988 in Pittsburgh. I believe you were a doctor around that time. In Pittsburgh. It is very likely that you are my biological father. I am 34 years old, married, and I have a beautiful one-year-old son who is the light of my life and my joy.
I grew up in Greensburg, Pennsylvania. I am a professional pianist and a professor of music as well as a church organist. I studied at Duquesne University and earned my doctorate in music at West Virginia [00:12:00] University. I have no expectations about our relationship and I respect your privacy. I have no ulterior motive in contacting you.
I have no intentions of disrupting your family or inserting myself suddenly into your life. I would just love to connect with you, to learn about you and obtain any pertinent medical history, especially since I am a mother. Now, if you wish for me to never contact you again, I will certainly respect that.
The only thing I ask is that you would tell me this as it has taken all my life to find the courage to look for you, and then piece together clues from DNA matches. I don’t know if you ever expected to be found, and I recognize that this will take some time to process, but I very much look forward to your reply.
Sincerely, Josie and I gave him my email address and phone number for him to reach out if he chooses.
[00:12:54] Alexis: I just have to say, I think your letter was really beautiful the way that you wrote it and kind of just [00:13:00] told him a little bit about you, but it was very low pressure and you mentioned that you want to have a relationship with your siblings or to get to know them. What are your hopes in terms of getting to know that family? What kind of connection do you want to have
[00:13:15] Josie: I would like to have cousins from my son, more people to, to love him and be his family. He’s just the best thing ever and deserves the world.
I didn’t even care about all these other relatives that I have until I had him.
[00:13:37] Alexis: Have you talked to your mom about this?
[00:13:38] Josie: I have not, and I don’t want to. I think it would break her heart. I think it might make her feel like she wasn’t enough for me, and that’s not the case at all. She was, I, I had a wonderful childhood.
She’s a wonderful mother and I appreciate her and [00:14:00] I hope that, that, I hope that I wasn’t a disappointment to her, like, and that she got what she was looking for when she decided to be a single mother by choice. I just don’t want to go there with her.
[00:14:14] Alexis: Well, I mean, hearing what you wrote in your letter, talking to you, I can tell that you’re a kind person.
You’re an accomplished person. I’m sure that you did not and have not disappointed her. Now that you’re further out and you wanted to learn more about where you came from, and you sort of had this epiphany in your twenties, how do you feel now about your donor conception?
[00:14:40] Josie: I mean, I’m, I’m grateful.
Like I, I’m grateful for my life and I’m grateful that he donated, and of course, I, I am grateful to my mother. I don’t, I don’t have any trauma around being donor conceived, which I know I’m definitely in the [00:15:00] minority for that because of all the groups on Facebook, I’m in there. There’s a lot of prevalent, pervasive trauma around being donor conceived.
And I, I wanna be sensitive to that and other people’s struggles and what they’re going through, but I, that’s not my experience and I am hesitant to share any of that in the groups because I don’t want to downplay anybody else’s trauma.
[00:15:31] Alexis: Right. Yeah. But you know, one of the things I always think is nobody gets to tell us how we feel about our own stories.
Your feelings are definitely valid. I was just curious about how you felt about it, because as you said before, you never really thought about it. It wasn’t really a factor in your life. You just accepted that you had a single mom by choice and that was fine.
[00:15:55] Josie: Yep, that was that.
[00:15:56] Alexis: So, you don’t know much then about the circumstances [00:16:00] for his donation. That’s not particularly important to you. What else would you like to learn about him?
[00:16:06] Josie: Medical history for sure. Um, his interests, like, I, I wonder, is he in into music at all? I’m a professional musician and my grandfather was an advocational musician, but I, I just wondering where this, like where else this music could have come from.
And this is pretty far down on the list, but I have like, self-esteem issues and there are parts of me that I really don’t like, and if I can see those features on another person who I have a relationship with, I might feel less negatively about them when I see them on myself, if that makes sense.
[00:16:55] Alexis: So, you’re talking about physical features? Yeah. So, looking for that genetic mirroring. [00:17:00] Yeah. Yeah, that totally makes sense. So, your son is very young, so I assume he does not know any of this. Have you thought about how you’ll talk to him about this when he’s a little bit older?
[00:17:14] Josie: I’m gonna have to cross that bridge when I come to it, because I’m gonna have to tell my mom eventually, sooner or later if I do end up developing a relationship with the other side of my family because I’m not gonna be able to keep that a secret from her. Uh, especially when my kid starts talking. If he says, well, I went to visit my cousins today, and my mom’s gonna say, you don’t have any cousins. Hmm. So, so then what? Like, I’m gonna have to tell her, but if, if he decides not to, I mean, if my donor decides not to contact me then I won’t really have to say much of anything.
[00:17:57] Alexis: Have you thought about how you would, um, talk [00:18:00] about donor conception just more generally to your son? Maybe to explain why he doesn’t have a grandfather on that side?
[00:18:08] Josie: Yeah, I’m gonna tell ’em when, when the time is right. I guess Just let ’em know that, um, He only has a grandma and that’s the way things are.
And here’s what happened. Um, grandma was a single mother by choice. I’m not gonna keep anything from him. How has
[00:18:33] Alexis: your perception of yourself changed since you found who your donor is, if at all?
[00:18:39] Josie: Like I said in my letter, it took a lot of courage to do all that digging and find him. I really, I don’t think it changed how I view myself, but that was a big step for me.
Yeah. To reach out. Yeah. It was brave and especially because I don’t wanna hurt my mother in any way. The other night, [00:19:00] you know how you get those matches pop up on 23 and me just like randomly. Yes. It’ll notify you like you have nine new relatives. Well, I, I tapped on it, always hoping it’s gonna be a half sibling, but I saw one of my mother’s first cousins and I said, oh shit, because I, I like, I was like, okay, my cover’s blown.
My, my mom’s cousin’s gonna tell her that she saw me on 23 and me. Um, within minutes I get a text from my mom. She’s like, hey, cousin Jan said you popped up on her 23 and me matches. What’s up with that? Why didn’t I match with her? And I was like, um, you would’ve had to take a 23 and me test. Would you like me to get you one?
And she just said, no. I know who my ancestors are. And that was it. That was the end of discussion. Hmm. So, I guess it’s, I got away with that one.
[00:19:56] Alexis: Yeah. That’s interesting. Has she ever said to [00:20:00] you that she did not want you to find your genetic parent, your donor?
[00:20:05] Josie: No. No, she never said anything at all.
[00:20:11] Alexis: Have you done anything to process all of this information over the last year that you’re coming across?
[00:20:18] Josie: Oh yes, I am in therapy. Cannot recommend that highly enough. I’ve talked to my husband about it and like two of my close friends about it, but really like therapy is where it’s at. I think everybody should get therapy. Yes. Agreed. Yes. It’s not really something that you talk about with casual acquaintances, like you don’t wanna blast it all over Facebook.
[00:20:44] Alexis: What are your views? I know that you’re not a spokesperson for all donor conceived people, so let me just add that as a caveat, but I am just curious your overall thoughts on donor conception because it wasn’t something that was [00:21:00] traumatic or stigmatized for you.
[00:21:02] Josie: Even though I don’t have any trauma around being donor conceived, I, I really am in agreement with other DCPS that it should not be anonymous. That was the practice in the eighties and that is not I. The general practice anymore ’cause it’s kind of considered unethical, but I, I definitely think that, um, children have the right to know who their biological father is and there doesn’t need to be any trauma around it
[00:21:37] Alexis: Yeah. What will you do or what is your plan if he doesn’t respond?
[00:21:45] Josie: Well, I’m trying to make peace with that right now because I. Do you realize that that is a possibility? Um, I’m just gonna let it go and I’m gonna be happy with the one photo I have of him [00:22:00] as a child that bears resemblance to my face and I will be happy knowing that I have half siblings and they have beautiful children, and that’s great.
I will just have to find a way to be okay with that. Not anything’s really gonna change because I didn’t have that connection for the first 34 years of my life. So, it’s nothing much is gonna change, but just knowing that it’s there and I tried to make the connection is sad.
[00:22:34] Alexis: And what is your first move if he does reach out?
[00:22:38] Josie: If he does reach out, I would really like to meet him if he’s open to that. And I would like to meet his daughter if she is open to that. And no pressure, but just go from there. It’s kind of anticlimactic story ’cause I haven’t gotten a response back yet, but [00:23:00] that’s what I got so far.
[00:23:02] Alexis: Okay. So, I always ask everyone these questions, but I love. To ask this question specifically to people who have known the truth their whole lives, um, because I just think it’s really interesting to hear that perspective. What advice would you offer to a parent of a donor conceived child who isn’t sure how to disclose that information or maybe hiding it?
[00:23:29] Josie: Definitely tell your kid because. My thought is if your child is neurotypical, they’re gonna figure it out a heck of a lot sooner than I did and it is their right to know. They have a right to know and it, there doesn’t need to be any trauma embarrassment, whatever it can be. Just matter of fact, this, this is.
The other side of your [00:24:00] family, whether or not you contact them, that can be up to you or your child or the donor. But just knowing their name and who they are and what they look like can go a long way.
[00:24:17] Alexis: And what advice do you have for fellow D C P who maybe just discovered that their donor conceived or are beginning to try to find their donor?
[00:24:27] Josie: Definitely go on Facebook and find the the donor conceived support groups. There are so many people in there. I had no idea it was this widespread and common. There are tons of good resources in there. The DNA Angels, I. I can’t thank them enough. Like my angel was amazing, but also you need to do your own research.
Like the angel is not gonna do everything for you. So, if you, if this is something that you wanna find [00:25:00] out, just go down a rabbit hole, read obituaries and piece your clues together. But it is your right to know you have a right and get therapy. Definitely get therapy.
[00:25:12] Alexis: Therapy forever.
[00:25:13] Josie: Yes.
[00:25:15] Alexis: Well, Josie, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your journey.
I know you mentioned that it’s anti-climactic, but I think that’s the reality for a lot of this, right? There’s a lot of waiting and searching and I think it’s so important to share all stages of the journey. It isn’t all Lifetime movie excitement the whole time, right? So, I wish you nothing but the best, and I hope that your donor responds sooner rather than later.
And good luck.
[00:25:44] Josie: Thank you so much.
[00:25:47] Alexis: And now here’s an update from Josie. Okay. Welcome back, Josie. Thank you. So, it’s been quite a few months since we last spoke. The last time we talked, [00:26:00] you had sent off a certified letter to your sperm donor and had not heard back yet. It had been about a month and you hadn’t heard back, and we kind of ended on this cliffhanger of would he respond to you, would he not?
And so, I will just cut right to the chase and ask, what is your update? What’s happened?
[00:26:26] Josie: I did receive a response, um, about two months after I sent the letter. I’m gonna read it to you. It’s, it was disappointing, but it was, it was a very respectful letter and, um, I thought it was very kind and I respect him.
So, um, it reads, dear Josie. I received your letter and acknowledge that the genes don’t lie. Your brief bio tells me that your mother did a fine job raising you and you are favored with intelligence and ambition. [00:27:00] Congratulations on your academic success, your marriage, and the birth of your son. I imagine you pondered for quite some time whether to reach out following your investigation.
I don’t know what your expectations might be, and I’m sorry to disappoint you if they included a near term reunion. The potential disruptions to my life and family are overwhelming to contemplate. 35 years ago, I anticipated a degree of anonymity and despite the craze for genealogical testing these days, I haven’t changed my mind.
At present, I would prefer to keep our lives on a separate trajectory as they have been. I wish you much happiness in the years ahead. Kind regards. And he signed his name.
[00:27:49] Alexis: How did you feel when you got that letter?
[00:27:53] Josie: Um, gutted at first, like I cried a lot, but. [00:28:00] It’s, I mean, it’s, he’s very kind in the letter and I, I’m going to respect his boundaries.
[00:28:09] Alexis: Yeah. So that was two months after you mailed it, he sent that response. And since then, has there been no further contact?
[00:28:18] Josie: No further contact.
[00:28:20] Alexis: Have you done any more digging into that side of the family and tried to learn anything else?
[00:28:26] Josie: I, I did find out that his mother is still alive, and as much as I wanna reach out to her, I’m not going to, because I’m going to respect his wishes.
[00:28:45] Alexis: I’m sorry that you didn’t get the outcome that you wanted. ’cause I know you’re really hoping for that connection.
[00:28:51] Josie: Yeah, it’s really okay. I, I’m thinking about maybe sending him one more letter, just saying that I respect [00:29:00] his wishes and thank you for writing me back. And I don’t necessarily need like a reunion or.
To come over to your house for Thanksgiving or like, I don’t, I don’t wanna move in, you know? But like if you would be open to exchanging some emails, that might be nice. I don’t know. I don’t wanna push too hard.
[00:29:23] Alexis: But how long did it take for you to kind of get over that initial hurt? Because I remember you reached out to me after you got that first letter back from him. And it was hard. I remember I read it and I, I even cried a little bit when I read it because he was kind. Um, but he was still saying no. And I, I knew how bad you wanted that. How long did that initial just disappointment and devastation last for you?
[00:29:50] Josie: Relatively speaking? Not that long. Whenever I think of it. I get sad for a little bit and say, well, I [00:30:00] really wish things were different, but I’m able to not dwell on it, which is good.
[00:30:06] Alexis: That is good. Have you sought advice from any of the donor conceived Facebook groups that you’re in on, on what your next step might be?
[00:30:13] Josie: Yeah. I get a lot of feedback in there.
I get a lot of people encouraging me to write a second letter and be respectful and, and say like, I, I don’t have any expectations of like a close relationship, but I would like to ask you some questions over email or something like that. Like, I don’t have anything to lose by reaching out again respectfully.
[00:30:46] Alexis: What questions do you still have for him?
[00:30:50] Josie: Well, medical history for one thing, because that I, he didn’t address that in my initial letter. I guess just start [00:31:00] there and see what else he’d be open to sharing.
[00:31:03] Alexis: How have you manage that initial kind of polite rejection from him in terms of establishing a relationship.
Last time we spoke, you said you were in therapy. What other things have you been doing to take care of yourself as you navigate that?
[00:31:19] Josie: Yes, definitely therapy. Can’t recommend it highly enough. Um, having my support system is really great. Like my husband is fantastic and my. Few close friends who know about this have been really great.
Another, um, recent thing that happened that brought up like a lot of feelings and none of them were good. My father-in-law passed away and he was so wonderful and I loved him so much, and I like it just brought up a lot that like my biological [00:32:00] dad is still alive and still here and he doesn’t wanna do have anything to do with me.
And my wonderful father-in-law who loved his grandson more than anything and was. So super exceedingly kind to me isn’t here anymore, and that just really sucks.
[00:32:18] Alexis: I’m so sorry for your loss.
[00:32:18] Josie: Thank you. And it sucks that my son doesn’t get to have that connection either.
[00:32:28] Alexis: Yeah, absolutely. And it sounds like he kind of was a, a fatherly figure for you.
[00:32:33] Josie: Yeah, he was great.
[00:32:35] Alexis: So last time we spoke, you hadn’t shared with your mom that you were doing any of this research. Does she know now or have you still kept it to yourself?
[00:32:42] Josie: I’ve still kept it to myself and I, I plan to.
[00:32:47] Alexis: One of the things that you mentioned was that, you know, it came up for you, this curiosity came up for you so much like later in life and by later in life. For anyone who’s [00:33:00] listening, I just mean like twenties, but not as a child. Josie wasn’t curious about it as a child, right? So, since it came up for you in your twenties, thirties, do you think that that was an advantage for you? That it wasn’t something that you really thought about as a child, or do you think it was a disadvantage or neither?
I’m just curious about your perspective on the timing of all of these questions that started surfacing.
[00:33:27] Josie: Yeah, that’s actually a really good question. Um, I feel like it was an advantage. And I feel very fortunate to say that I don’t have any trauma surrounding this, and I know that, um, a lot of NPEs and DCPS do have trauma.
So, I feel very lucky to say that I don’t. Um, and I think because that it wasn’t a part of my [00:34:00] thought process as a child and a young adult. I just feel like that was, that’s the reason why I can approach this with, I don’t know how to say it, with positivity, I guess, and not a lot of pain.
[00:34:15] Alexis: What is next for you in your DNA journey or just life in general?
[00:34:22] Josie: I’m just gonna. Enjoy life with my son and my husband and keep busy at work and yeah, just live life.
[00:34:32] Alexis: Well, thank you so much for joining me for this update. I really appreciate hearing from you and I’m still gonna think positive thoughts for you in whatever step you decide to take next. Thank you so much.
Thanks again to Josie for sharing her story. And thank you for listening to this season of DNA surprises. If you’ve experienced a DNA surprise, I hope that this podcast helps you feel less alone. [00:35:00] If you have a DNA surprise story that you’d like to share, please email email@example.com. And if you get a chance, rate, review and subscribe to the podcast on Apple and Spotify.
We’ll be back in September with season six. Until next time.